Tom Hiddleston in ‘The Avengers’, (2012). Dir. Joss Whedon.
Let me hug you.
You know? This gets downplayed a lot after what happened in Thor 1 and Thor himself saying “somethingsomething Imagined slights” in Avengers.
Loki isn’t lying here, he’s not imagining anything.
HE WAS THE RIGHTFUL KING OF ASGARD AND HE WAS BETRAYED.
Odin fell into Odinsleep™
, Thor was banished. The line of succession FELL ON HIM. We see the soldiers giving him Gungnir and Frigga approving it.
For a very short period of time, Loki was King, until Thor’s fanclub (with the help of Heimdall) betrayed Loki and the throne, with no other motive than they liked Thor better.
Louder for the people in the back! Also makes sense why Heimdall took off while Loki was king in Ragnarok. He did betray him!
Heimdall was really bad at his job. If he worked for me I would have fired him too!
thor and loki admitting they love each other (◕‿◕✿)
Thor’s not even being sincere here; he’s manipulating Loki. So there’s that.
Loki has, on the other hand, looked his brother right in the eyes and said, word-for-word, “You’re my brother and my friend. Sometimes I’m envious, but never doubt that I love you.”
Me, about every single deleted Loki scene in every single Thor/Avengers film: WHY THE FUCK WASN’T THIS IN THE MOVIE IT’S THE BEST DAMN SCENE THAT EVER EXISTED!!!
Tom, what were you and Natalie planning with these two characters?
Yeah, I concur with you @sir-quack-alot Which is even more beautiful in my opinion cause he doesn’t necessarily have strong feeling towards her but he’ll still do what he can for her and Thor.
I agree with @sir-quack-alot and @asgardiankingofmischief as well. I never saw this as any romantic/sexual chemistry between Loki and Jane. I viewed it much more as he knows his brother cares for her deeply, and so he’s willing to literally put his life on the line to protect her.
And the fact that he did this just after having warned Thor not to get too attached… you know, his whole, “Today, a thousand years… it’s nothing, it’s a heartbeat” speech. (In fact, I find that bit of dialogue interesting for so many different reasons, but that’s for another post). Anyway, my point is, he puts aside whatever personal feelings he might have about the impracticality of their relationship and doesn’t even hesitate to defend her–multiple times–with his life. I think that’s entirely because he loves Thor, and has little if anything to do with Jane.
And then of course, like so many other things, Thor: Ragnarok came along and fucked that over good. 🙄
Yes! Good point, @nikkoliferous Wow, that line makes this 1000x better. It’s funny cause I feel like Avengers Loki (you know the one where he’s clearly out of his mind) would leave her to fend for herself. And not show any care but like literally any Loki after or before wouldn’t do that.
Some vague examples:
Thor (2011) : On Jotunheim, he puts the Warriors Three and Sif’s safety before everything else, even Thor’s ambitions.
Thor: The Dark World : As mentioned, he protects Jane first even when he doesn’t necessarily need to. (They already got the Aether out and he wanted Malekith dead more than anything)
Thor: Ragnarok (I know I hate it too) : Even here, we see Loki come back for the Asgardians and lead them to safety, before that in the beginning of the movie, Loki tries to take Hela out in the Bifrost/Rainbow bridge so both he and Thor can escape but also keep her from Asgard.
Infinity War: Literally sacrifices the space stone so his brother could live.
And the worst part about this is? Everyone keeps treating him like he’s Avengers Loki regardless of the circumstances at the time.
Ehhhhh, I’m iffy on the Hela-Ragnarok one because calling for the Bifrost at that moment, to begin with, was about as out of character as you could possibly get. 😒 So I kind of prefer to just forget that ever even happened. Lol
But yeah, aside from Avengers (where he clearly wasn’t even fully in control of his own mind), his actionsacross the franchise as a whole don’t really support the whole “Loki is a narcissist” narrative that exists? We don’t count the play and the statue of himself in Ragnarok because 1) that was bad writing, not bad characterization and 2) he likes to pretend like he’s unaffected and self-centred (which is a defense mechanism) but if you solely analyze his behaviour–or hell, even just his body language–the idea that he only cares about himself is nearly laughable.
I suppose you could maybe make an argument for post-identity crisis Thor (2011) Loki. Maybe. But even then, he may not be being controlled by an external force, but he is essentially having a psychotic break, so… honestly it’s not a significantly different circumstance.
And hell. Even Avengers!Loki has rare moments of clarity where you can plainly see that he doesn’t want any of what’s happening. Right before he stabs Thor, for instance, he looks around and his face has legit panic and horror written on it. Which is sort of foreshadowed by Coulson’s “you lack conviction” line.
So hey, you know, I just want to put it out there that Ragnarok!Thor is actually not even equally bad but is a worse person than any not-minded-controlled Loki is. Because under any normal circumstance, I can’t fathom Loki electrocuting Thor and then stand over him gloating while Thor writhes in agony (literal description straight from the script).
Ehhhhh, I’m iffy on the Hela-Ragnarok one because calling for the Bifrost at that moment, to begin with, was about as out of character as you could possibly get. 😒 So I kind of prefer to just forget that ever even happened. Lol
Yeah, I feel you, though I was thinking more in the sense that even completely ooc and in the movie that calls him out for being all self interested and unchanging, he’s still better than what Thor thinks of him.
I suppose you could maybe make an argument for post-identity crisis Thor (2011) Loki. Maybe. But even then, he may not be being controlled by an external force, but he is essentially having a psychotic break, so… honestly it’s not a significantly different circumstance.
Also, yeah, nah, I don’t think there is an argument for that Loki either. Everything he does in that film is to gain his father’s acceptance and love. He’s clearly lacking in the self-importance department even then (unless people are willing to argue that Loki somehow doesn’t deserve his father’s love? :/) He becomes king not by his choosing either, and even if it was, his father straight up told him he was born to be a king, that makes it sound like Loki has a chance at the throne. Killing the Frost Giants? Thor makes it sound like Loki feeling like he has the right to kill all of them is wrong, but he literally shared that same viewpoint just three days before. So if anything, they would have had about the same amount of self importance.
And hell. Even Avengers!Loki has rare moments of clarity where you can plainly see that he doesn’t want any of what’s happening. Right before he stabs Thor, for instance, he looks around and his face has legit panic and horror written on it. Which is sort of foreshadowed by Coulson’s “you lack conviction” line.
And ha! Right, even then he wasn’t so full of himself. All the actions he’d taken in Germany were a distraction for Barton, which worked, mind you. I think even getting caught was a part of the distraction right? So basically even while completely out of his mind, he was just putting on a show for the Avengers, making them see what he wanted them to see. Plus, all his choices of words were meant to give of the same reaction I believe, because again, he never ever says anything like the dialogue we see in that first Avengers.
So hey, you know, I just want to put it out there that Ragnarok!Thor is actually not even equally bad but is a worse person than any not-minded-controlled Loki is. Because under any normal circumstance, I can’t fathom Loki electrocuting Thor and then stand over him gloating while Thor writhes in agony (literal description straight from the script).
Yeah, I think I agree with you, tbh. I was contemplating it for a while but everything Thor does in that movie is manipulative, cruel, and self-centered. And I’m legit starting to hate Thor in general cause I feel like his actions have always been condoned and that gets tiring when he’s constantly making the wrong decisions. The weirdest thing is, I feel like he’s the only hero that this happens to? I just don’t get it.
Yeah, I’ve said it before elsewhere, but Loki has always gotten the short end of the stick from Marvel, since day one. Ragnarok took it to a whole new level of outright character assassination, but Marvel has always been shitty in how they frame his actions in the final versions of their movies.
They cut numerous scenes from Thor (2011) AND Avengers that gave any context to his actions. Frigga being the one who named him king (hence showing that his rule is legit), the pre-coronation scene where he calls Thor his brother and friend, the conversation with Barton in Avengers that explains why he intentionally gets himself caught… hell, they cut out something as TINY as his surprise at being invited to go with Thor and the Warriors to Jötunheim. It was obvious in the deleted version of that scene that he hadn’t expected Thor to want him there too and was ecstatic at being included. And that was maybe a freaking SIXTY SECOND extension of the scene. There’s no way that was cut for time. I just can’t believe that’s the real reason; it’s illogical. It seems way more likely that it was cut to muddy the waters about Loki’s character motivations and make him look like more of a schemer than he was actually being, at least that early on in the story.
I can’t recall if there were any equally significant scenes cut from The Dark World. I know they did have a deleted scene where Thor goes down to the dungeons and basically attacks Loki, assuming he had something to do with the mass breakout… even though, you know, he’s the only prisoner who didn’t escape. Which I feel like would have demonstrated that Loki’s not the only toxic one in their relationship. But we can’t have golden boy Thor looking bad, could we? 😒 So I guess in a roundabout sort of way, you could kind of count that scene amongst them as well.
Tom, what were you and Natalie planning with these two characters?
Yeah, I concur with you @sir-quack-alot Which is even more beautiful in my opinion cause he doesn’t necessarily have strong feeling towards her but he’ll still do what he can for her and Thor.
I agree with @sir-quack-alot and @asgardiankingofmischief as well. I never saw this as any romantic/sexual chemistry between Loki and Jane. I viewed it much more as he knows his brother cares for her deeply, and so he’s willing to literally put his life on the line to protect her.
And the fact that he did this just after having warned Thor not to get too attached… you know, his whole, “Today, a thousand years… it’s nothing, it’s a heartbeat” speech. (In fact, I find that bit of dialogue interesting for so many different reasons, but that’s for another post). Anyway, my point is, he puts aside whatever personal feelings he might have about the impracticality of their relationship and doesn’t even hesitate to defend her–multiple times–with his life. I think that’s entirely because he loves Thor, and has little if anything to do with Jane.
And then of course, like so many other things, Thor: Ragnarok came along and fucked that over good. 🙄
Yes! Good point, @nikkoliferous Wow, that line makes this 1000x better. It’s funny cause I feel like Avengers Loki (you know the one where he’s clearly out of his mind) would leave her to fend for herself. And not show any care but like literally any Loki after or before wouldn’t do that.
Some vague examples:
Thor (2011) : On Jotunheim, he puts the Warriors Three and Sif’s safety before everything else, even Thor’s ambitions.
Thor: The Dark World : As mentioned, he protects Jane first even when he doesn’t necessarily need to. (They already got the Aether out and he wanted Malekith dead more than anything)
Thor: Ragnarok (I know I hate it too) : Even here, we see Loki come back for the Asgardians and lead them to safety, before that in the beginning of the movie, Loki tries to take Hela out in the Bifrost/Rainbow bridge so both he and Thor can escape but also keep her from Asgard.
Infinity War: Literally sacrifices the space stone so his brother could live.
And the worst part about this is? Everyone keeps treating him like he’s Avengers Loki regardless of the circumstances at the time.
Ehhhhh, I’m iffy on the Hela-Ragnarok one because calling for the Bifrost at that moment, to begin with, was about as out of character as you could possibly get. 😒 So I kind of prefer to just forget that ever even happened. Lol
But yeah, aside from Avengers (where he clearly wasn’t even fully in control of his own mind), his actionsacross the franchise as a whole don’t really support the whole “Loki is a narcissist” narrative that exists? We don’t count the play and the statue of himself in Ragnarok because 1) that was bad writing, not bad characterization and 2) he likes to pretend like he’s unaffected and self-centred (which is a defense mechanism) but if you solely analyze his behaviour–or hell, even just his body language–the idea that he only cares about himself is nearly laughable.
I suppose you could maybe make an argument for post-identity crisis Thor (2011) Loki. Maybe. But even then, he may not be being controlled by an external force, but he is essentially having a psychotic break, so… honestly it’s not a significantly different circumstance.
And hell. Even Avengers!Loki has rare moments of clarity where you can plainly see that he doesn’t want any of what’s happening. Right before he stabs Thor, for instance, he looks around and his face has legit panic and horror written on it. Which is sort of foreshadowed by Coulson’s “you lack conviction” line.
So hey, you know, I just want to put it out there that Ragnarok!Thor is actually not even equally bad but is a worse person than any not-minded-controlled Loki is. Because under any normal circumstance, I can’t fathom Loki electrocuting Thor and then stand over him gloating while Thor writhes in agony (literal description straight from the script).
We talk a lot about Ragnarok sabotaging Loki’s character and making him look awful (and rightfully so), but I’ll also never get over the fact that they literally cut almost every scene in Thor (2011) and Avengers Assemble that gave context to any of his actions or his relationship with Thor.
Marvel has always watered Loki down and treated him like shit.
Hi! I don’t mind at all! Thank you for sending me this ask! 🙂 ❤
The thing about Loki is that he’s a very lonely person. He is not popular as Thor is. He doesn’t have friends. The W4 and Heimdall were never his friends. From how they treat Loki, disrespect and taunt him, it’s obvious that they only tolerate Loki. So Loki only has Thor. Despite how Thor was favored, despite how Loki was treated as someone inferior and despite envying Thor, Loki loves him. As Loki said in the deleted scene in Thor 1, Thor is his brother and his friend. What Loki wants to break out of is being Thor’s shadow. He wants to be Thor’s equal,and he wants to be treated as an equal and he wants for Thor to understand him, to understand what he went through. This has nothing to do with Loki betraying Thor. In fact the notion that Loki keeps betraying Thor, is sth that TR’s narrative wants the audience to believe. This is a retcon and considering the previous movies, it’s not true. As I explained in length in this post, most of Loki’s horrible actions wasn’t about hurting Thor:
“Sabotaging
Thor’s coronation was not a betrayal to Thor. Loki knew that Thor wasn’t fit to be a king yet, and
he tried to stop it. Just like Thor tried to take the throne from Hela, who was
the rightful heir, because she wasn’t suitable for the job.”
“Loki trying
to commit genocide on Jotunhim wasn’t about hurting Thor, it was about proving
his worthiness to Odin.” This wasn’t a betrayal to Thor. What counts as betrayal to Thor, in Thor 1 are Loki lying to Thor about Odin’s death and almost killing him with the destroyer.
Now let’s talk about Avengers. At the end of Thor 1 Loki lets go of the Gungnir and commits suicide because Odin denied him the approval he wanted. He wanted to prove to Odin that he was a worthy son, but Odin looked at him with disappointed and told him “No Loki”. In the end credit scene of Thor 1 we see Loki who looks like he’s been through Hell:
“His teeth are bloody. His skin looks like it’s burnt. He is emaciated.
It seems like his right eye has blood in it. He is clearly not in a good
condition.”
His condition is even worse than how he was at the start of Avengers. And Loki’s behavior shows that he’s not himself. Besides, it’s not logical that someone suicidal who only ever wanted to be equal to his brother and worthy in the eyes of his father wants the throne of another planet. So what happened? Loki is captured by Thanos and his children. And with the help of mind stone they altered or messed with Loki’s mind. Made him the worst version of himself and since Loki is quite powerful, they probably needed to torture him physically too which explains his terrible physical condition. Moreover, Thanos tortured his own children to make them better. You think he wouldn’t do that to a stranger? Also the way The Other threatened Loki with pain and how he could reach into Loki’s head, shows that Loki wasn’t completely in control.
I believe after Hulk smashed him, the effects of mind stone were gone like what happened to Clint. You can read my detailed theory on it here. But my point is Loki wasn’t himself and he wasn’t in his right mind. He wasn’t actually wanted to rule Earth and the Chitauri weren’t his allies. They were Thanos’ forces. So Loki’s actions in Avengers weren’t a betrayal to Thor. They weren’t about Thor. Loki was under duress and he had to deliver his end of the bargain to the most powerful being in the universe.
In TDW Loki didn’t fake his death to usurp the throne:
“1.
Loki’s
illusions can’t hold upon contact. They get either dissolved or disoriented. In
other words they are like images and projections. They are not solid unless
they are put on an actual person. Like when Loki was putting illusion on
Thor and himself, or when he was Odin and Thor had grabbed him and the illusion
didn’t wear off until Loki wanted. So Loki actually was stabbed through the
chest to save Thor.
2.
The
stabbing through chest wasn’t and couldn’t have been planned. Loki
didn’t know that the blade couldn’t kill the Kursed. He couldn’t know that
Kursed would then impale him on the blade. He also didn’t know if Kursed
would hold him on the blade until he died or throw him away sooner. So when he
activated that grenade he did it with complete knowledge that it could kill him
too. So he also didn’t know that he would survive the stabbing and he didn’t
have any hope for it. Because he instantly activated sth that could kill
him too. So his apology to Thor was also sincere.
Loki’s sacrifice was real. His only fault!!! was that he survived. And when he
survived he took advantage of his situation. He didn’t inform Thor
because Thor had promised to return him to his cell. He usurped the
throne to take revenge on Odin and in doing so he not only protected Thor and
his friends from the consequence of their treason, he made sure to separate the
Tesseract and the Aether. Not to mention he offered the throne to Thor and
Thor refused.”(X)
Loki even asked Thor to confirm it was his own wish to refuse the throne not Jane. So again this wasn’t a betrayal to Thor.
Now the only way Loki’s betrayal makes sense in TR is either because Loki was upset because of what Thor told him in the elevator which according to the script he was or he wanted to prevent Thor from getting himself killed by Hela which I think it was the case at least on a subconscious level. It couldn’t be to gain GM’s favor because he knew there was a revolution and GM wouldn’t be in power anymore. That makes his betrayal understandable. Loki doesn’t do things without a reason or because he’s the god of mischief! This is another one of TR’s retcons.
As I mentioned Loki always wanted to be free of being Thor’s shadow but TR made them go back to where they started. It brought their relationship to how it was before Thor’s banishment: superior Thor and inferior Loki. So you have every right to assume that Loki has a dependent relationship with his brother, because despite all his efforts that’s where he ended up at the end, because that’s how their relationship was portrayed in TR. I explained in this post how TR make Thor and Loki’s relationship like a narcissist and its victim. When Loki visited Thor he tried to speak to Thor and get him to understand Loki but Thor didn’t listen and blamed him for everything. His speech to Loki in the elevator was basically saying Loki’s not good enough because he isn’t the brother Thor wants. And after the betrayal Thor punishes Loki with the obedience disc and tells him Loki needs to be more than just the god of mischief while Loki’s always been more. So when Thor refused to understand Loki and left him alone, Loki because of his loneliness came back to Thor for some scrap of love. So yes, Loki wanted to break free from being Thor’s shadow but it didn’t happen.
I completely understand anon. Personally I have a love-hate relationship with that scene 😀 It shows the dynamic Thor and Loki had through the years. Thor has a temper and a tendency to take out his anger on the people he blames. As it is shown in the first Thor movie, he also let out his anger in destructive ways. Since Thor and Loki are children of a narcissistic parent, they fit the description Golden Child and Scapegoat respectively. The Golden Child can pick on the behavior of the narcissistic parent and learn to blame the Scapegoat for everything. And this was Thor and Loki’s dance through the years and they can easily fall to their old pattern despite their efforts to change it.
You can see this was a known pattern to them in the movies. In the scene where Loki approaches Thor after the coronation was disrupted you can see how cautiously Loki walks towards Thor. And the dialogue that follows shows that they both know Thor is angry enough that he just needs a little push from Loki to let it out on him:
“It’s not wise to be in my company right now brother.”
“Who said I was wise.”
Thor’s anger and his inability to control it is one of his important personality flaws. The reaction of not only Loki but the W4 after Thor was called a princess, shows that they all knew him enough to expect an irrational attack of him. Of course Thor got better at controlling it and acting more mature and wise after his banishment. Still when he’s with Loki, letting go of a life time of old habits is more difficult. Because Thor and Loki both are a bit myopic when it comes to treating each other. You can see this in the boat scene in TDW that when Loki verbally attacks Thor and angers him, Thor reverts to physical violence.
Loki’s resigned face here shows that this is a behavior from Thor that he’s used to. The difference this time is when Thor looks at Loki, understands what he’s doing and stops.
There’s also one deleted scene in TDW that Thor walks into Loki’s cell and accuses him of causing the trouble when Loki’s the only prisoner who isn’t freed. Thor has used to blaming Loki for every problem.
Although Thor has gotten better in controlling his anger, there are times he slips. In AOU he is understandably angry at Tony but he doesn’t think that Tony’s a human and he shouldn’t just lift him by his neck or ask him questions before let out his anger on him.
In TR, Thor has come back to find his brother usurping the throne and Odin’s no where to be found and when finds him, his father dies and the threat of Ragnarok that he thought he nullified, is closer than before. Everything has gone wrong. So it must be Loki’s fault. Again you can see the same resignation on Loki’s face when he is faced with Thor’s accusations and anger.
The thing is this time Thor’s trying to control himself. He visibly tries to restrain himself although he’s shaking with anger. Hela’s arrival put a stop to it. They look at each other and silently agree that they need to deal with this new threat. But who knows what would happen if Hela didn’t arrive on time? And this question made me come up with so many angsty ideas!:D So, you know, I hate it that Thor always blame Loki in everything and I hate it that the movie tried to validate this idea that Loki’s always the one to blame but I like it that in doing so it gave us a look into Thor and Loki’s fucked up family dynamic. Therefore my love-hate feelings about this scene.
The weirdest thing is, I feel like he’s the only hero that this happens to? I just don’t get it.
are you loki, god of knives? 🗡🙄 
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