icyxmischief:

sweetdreamr:

cosmicjoke:

the-real-zhora-salome:

cosmicjoke:

the-real-zhora-salome:

cosmicjoke:

the-real-zhora-salome:

miskiett:

cosmicjoke:

I keep thinking about this.  About Loki’s character shift in Ragnarok, and something else that’s really struck me is this.  Loki in Thor 1 was so fascinating, because he was so obviously RESERVED.  He was QUIET, often just standing back, observing others, making moves without anyone even knowing he was doing anything.  That’s what made him so scary and such an effective antagonist.  Watching Loki in that film, he seems so strange, enigmatic and even conservative.  He doesn’t actually do a lot of talking until he NEEDS to.  He wasn’t making stupid puns or acting like a clown, pulling shit eating grins every five seconds.  He hardly ever smiles in the film at all, actually.  When he does, it’s near the end, and it’s a smile of pure madness, when he’s just gone off the deep end in his grief, asking Thor why he shouldn’t be able to destroy Joutenheim.  Otherwise he seems intimidatingly collected and careful and deliberate in every action he takes, in every word he says.

Compare that to how he was in Ragnarok, again with the stupid, really SILLY behavior, again the shit eating grins, the looks of sarcastic confusion, the lack of any real plans or ideas of his own, a failure to see what others are thinking or doing around him, etc…  

In Thor 1 he sees everything everyone does and uses it to his advantage.  In Ragnarok he gets fooled by Thor with… reverse psychology.  The crudest, most basic form of manipulation one can imagine.  Reverse psychology shouldn’t work on anyone with two brain cells in their head.  But we’re supposed to believe it works on Loki, of all people.  

The only time in Thor 1 when Loki starts to lose control is when his emotions get the better of him.  When he’s drowning in his own horror and grief over being a Frost Giant, and over so desperately needing for Odin to love and accept him.  He doesn’t get outwitted by anyone.  He doesn’t get played.  He doesn’t get made an ass out of, or made the butt of any jokes.  

Really, Loki being used as fodder to make other characters look good started in The Avengers, but in Ragnarok, it really just got taken to a whole new level.  

“Loki being used”

Okay, but I think part of this is genuine character development, at least in A1 and TWD. Loki grew into his role of the antagonist. He grew into his megalomania if you will. And I think he started to enjoy himself more, if that makes sense. And I think some of the shifts in TR were less the result of Loki getting sloppy or soft but more the result of Thor finally catching on and beating Loki at his own game.

I mean, if Loki suddenly becoming an idiot is character development, I guess so.

I don’t think he did, though. At least not in A1 and TWD.

Not in The Dark World, no.  He was good for the first 40 or so minutes of Avengers before he started acting like an idiot.  But like I said, Ragnarock took his sudden case of idiocy to a whole new level.

And really, Thor didn’t get smarter.  Loki got dumber.  Thor’s “trickery” in Ragnarok is something a brain dead three year old wouldn’t fall for.  But somehow, Loki, the god of lies and mischief, the supposedly most cunning god in all of Asgard, supposedly possessing a genius level intellect, fell for all of Thor’s moronic tricks, and every other characters moronic tricks and manipulations as well.  That’s not character development, that’s bad writing.  That’s called a character shift, one of the worst things you can do in any form of writing.  It showed laziness and a total lack of concern for maintaining any manner of story telling coherence on the part of that cock face that directed the film.

Not like an idiot. I think that was mania taking over. At least for a while.

And Thor only really tricked him once in TR. And I think he only succeeded precisely because it was beating Loki at his own game. Loki didn’t get dumber, but complacent. He felt so secure in his ability to play Thor for a fool over and over again, as he had done for millennia, that he never even thought about the possibility that Thor might turn the tables on him.

Thor learned from the master.

If you fall for reverse psychology, you’re an idiot.  It’s about the most basic and idiotic form of manipulation there is.  If someone is supposed to be a master manipulator like Loki is, it’s entirely out of character for him to fall for something so basic and dumb.  So naw, it wasn’t Thor getting smarter.  It was the writers being too fucking lazy to come up with a way to make Thor look smarter without also making Loki look like a moron.

The thing is, the writers shot themselves in the foot with this one. Bc Loki being outwitted by Thor and Dr. Strange is presented as a moment of triumph–but since Loki is pretty much lacking in the brain department, a five-year-old could have outwitted Loki with relative ease. This, these moments are hollow and fall short.

I mean, it’s possible to outwit Loki, usually by playing on his emotions or ego. But this movie put zero thought into his character, and it really shows.

I agree with @sweetdreamr .  I think both sides of this argument have interesting ideas ( @the-real-zhora-salome, I appreciate that you indicate that Loki’s conduct in Avengers was a case of mania and desperation, a survival attempt, not stupidity), but I can’t accept that what happened to Loki in Ragnarok is legitimate, consistent character development because

A) Waititi made it clear multiple times on the record that he hated and disdained Loki, so any “development” would naturally be at Loki’s expense 

B) any “development” that indeed renders a character mindlessly complacent to another character, passed off as “redemption” or “reconciliation,” is a nicely gift-wrapped disguise for emotional coercion, and makes me very very uncomfortable, whether the character is Loki or not.  

So @cosmicjoke wins this round, imho.